September 2021
221 tweets
Thank you!
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Congratulations! This is excellent.
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Once again Ireland is caught acting as an uncooperative data haven and other European institutions have to step in in its stead.
It's a sad thing to see, I hope they fix @DPCIreland soon.
Quoting a tweet by @markscott82 ↗
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All of it can be true at once! The DPC is bad (I think that's established by now), the EDPB steps in out of exasperation because they feel it's the only way to maintain the rule of law over a rogue member, but eventually the ECJ disagrees.
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Happy to talk about it in ten years. My sense is that it's pretty clear which DPAs are trying and which aren't, even if nothing is perfect.
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An approach that aligns privacy with competition, focused on privacy rights, levels the playing field with Apple. This can work across the board!
Quoting a tweet by @nicolasrieul ↗
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I would say France, Germany (or at least some of the Germans), Spain, Norway are pushing in the right direction (off the top of my head). I also tend to think of @NOYBeu as the people's DPA 😁
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Thanks!
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Yup. I'll reconsider when there's less reason to believe that they're undermining the GDPR for profit.
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It's weird this thing in which a significant tech company is building features that focus on users and well being. I hope it inspires a trend from the others.
Quoting a tweet by @hypervisible ↗
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It's more of a daydreaming hobby than anything else but I've long (as in since Microsoft's darkest days) had this occasional fun imagining what it would take to run a major, empire-class company (so larger than Twitter today) without acting like a short-termist asshole.
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At some point you piss off so many people being an arrogant jerk (and also self-preferencing so much you totally lose sight of what people want versus what you can prop up through other market power) that no matter how powerful you get knocked down.
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It's usually deserved, but there's a weird sense in which it's a shame. Companies like Facebook or Google could have been great. They have people who want them to be great. But they're so far out of touch it doesn't matter what they try. That's kind of a shame.
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All this to say: in the long game, it is.
I hear you but I see something a bit better than that. For one, they're actually looking at how people use the product, rather than A/B test and pray. Also, finding ways to align business objectives with good behaviour is powerful, and often more lasting than good at loss!
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I'm cautious in my optimism, of course. I don't know that Twitter will lead the way there, but I think there is a business model for pro-social social media. We shouldn't jump to conclusions from such a short time.
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I think the implication is that users "consent" 😁
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Google takes it several steps farther, eg. using Chrome to block everyone else from collecting data while collecting online behaviour directly from the browser. Apple is far from great there, but differing only in label is a lesser issue.
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The uterus is a gun that shoots out babies.
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See also: "can't you just."
This is why we need to think beyond "first party" and agree on a definition of context that we can enforce to bring this kind of abuse under control.
Quoting a tweet by @kyotonio ↗
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It can be complicated to delineate what a specific service is. You can put everything on the same site and make it all accessible from the same UI. It's even harder for query interfaces like voice assistants. The easy cases are easy, but there are important hard cases.
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Probably not much as it currently exists because GPC works with existing laws that look at business structure, not contexts.
Ha! We'll see! I'm still on vacation and waiting for a visa so I haven't been thinking about this stuff much, but I'll try to say something cogent!
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"Engineered innocence" is an excellent coinage, stealing it!
(Rest of thread is a must-read.)
Quoting a tweet by @C___CS ↗
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Many thanks to the organisers, this was a lively and interesting discussion!
Quoting a tweet by @Cristianapt ↗
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Thank you!
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Another way to look at it is that we are finding out a lot about what we need to have up, running, and resilient in this newer world we have. That's our chance.
But yes, it's about to get bleaker even if we turn things around fast.
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Imagine how much better we'd make most people's experience of the Web with just the addition of a choice screen for search.
We'll need another business model for browsers, but it can be better than selling users to the highest search bidder! t.co/D2CT9U66JF
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I beg to differ. I initially didn't want to switch to duck because I thought it'd be a Linux experience. I stayed there because it's the best experience I've found.
That's actually the point: there is no such thing as a search engine good for all or at all times.
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If you try to make search that is good at everything and anyone, you get Google Search: really good at some generic things but with really unhelpful biases for others (eg. towards freshness, away from smaller but locally relevant) and random infoboxes that may or may not show up.
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Ideally, browsers would make it easy to pick the right specialised search on the fly. Unfortunately, they're all relying on selling users to search engines, so their interests are out of line with those of users. So you get whoever can pay more owning the market. Not great.
You say that like luddism is bad.
Putain, ça fait vraiment flipper la France.
youtu.be/QHP0rR2AaUk
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Oui, c'est complètement de la propagande. Aucune scrupule à tapiner vers l'extrême-droite. Ça va puer les élections l'an prochain.
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C'est pas la drogue qui fait peur dans cette vidéo, c'est la propagande.
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That's me hard at work packaging some personal data.
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You got me figured.
Happy to bring a few together to answer that 😂
Others do most of the talking about that, I'm afraid.
Pareil!
Thanks!
Glad you like it 😁
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Everybody is trying to be Shopify, cart & conversion information are important for ads. Google is using Chrome for the same.
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Finally back in the US with a visa.
Many, many thanks to all who sent helpful tips and words of support. It's been a maddening ride but it's always good to see that there are kind strangers on the internet.
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Why but of course — for all your stylishness needs: store.nytimes.com.
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I'm curious, have you had any luck with that?
Thanks! I mean, there are worse places to be stuck in than Europe, but being blocked out of the US wasn't a very enticing prospect…
*bows* Your Highness.
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It totally freaked me out — started trying to figure out how to move back to Europe (or wherever), looking for schools for the girls, taking into account that I couldn't get back into the US where all my stuff is. Fun times.
Thanks!
I read up on it: it's "technically correct." When your visa needs extra docs, the legalese is that it's refused but fixable. They introduced the NIE requirement as just that, sort of how you'd abuse and overload an existing API. But yeah, wtf.
It's done in JS because the CMPs are entirely client-side. They don't try to hide it better because you, me, and some of our friends on here see it as evil but the vast majority don't know — and they don't get punished for it. It's only upside.
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Gut feeling. I thought it was weird that it was "refused" online but that I hadn't received a matching refusal "come pick your passport up" email. After long enough working with computers you develop a sense for dirty hacks and "smelly" code from just the system behaviour.
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It's common when working in a hurry to reuse functionality designed for something else in a dirty way, and that's just what it is: they're using the refused pending supplemental information status to hook the NIE in. It's a quick hack.
Once I had that hypothesis, I knew what to search for and sure enough I immediately found forums with people discussing that.
That's why I'm sharing here!
This is wonderful news!
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Does this show that they are important, or rather that they are easier to enforce?
I agree that informing DSs is very important, but isn't the primary criticism of notices that they don't achieve that goal? Admittedly, I haven't written a thesis on it 🙃
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I agree that they're in the same bucket, but mostly in the sense that the overwhelming majority of the time, both are of little value to the DS (even when used) — but they provide a lot of indirect value for investigation.
Thanks — that's a very good table indeed.
I'm not saying that helping with enforcement isn't valuable! It certainly is. I just tend to think that we should clearly distinguish what is meant to help with regulatory accountability from what helps DSs be informed.
The conflation of those two things has created a lot of pain. It's possible to try to hit both (our PP tries!) but it's often very very hard.
Easy to enforce is super valuable — I just think that conflating that with "effectively informs the subject" often ends up being a lie.
Thank you!
Curious: are there good TikToks about privacy?
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Thanks!
A few of us were wondering :)
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Thanks :)
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The problem isn't convincing "bureaucrats," the problem is proposing an alternative with sufficient political traction. Offloading to users is done in part because no one is proposing a better model that can also get enough support to exist.
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Are you doing anything?
I'm sorry but citation needed? Browser vendors and consumer orgs have been extensively represented over time — in fact, consumer orgs are often the ones that want consent. The option developed with browser vendors was DNT and, well, that hasn't panned out.
DNT wasn't intended to be optional but rather to be legally supported; it became optional when it failed. Any other header-based has the same issue, which is why GPC has traction. ADPC has nice ideas, but unless it can solve its fingerprinting issues, it's DOA with browsers.
I've been wondering for a while if people who have access to material data about other companies shouldn't be barred from trading. Eg. anything from adtech to analytics to Chrome could be used for insider trading. Some surely is.
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Totally - the question is one of enforcement, including inside companies. The odds that the SEC would catch the ops guy using traffic patterns from serving the AdChoices logo to inform his trades are close to nil. That guy should be subject to trading windows.
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Exactly. This is why I'd love to see someone look at applying the Economic Espionage Act in this space. Stuff like Chrome Sync for instance is clearly a violation of trust and privacy, but we're more likely to get serious enforcement when businesses realise it's espionage.
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I mean, the incentives are aligned, the system is just rigged to prevent that. But making personal data material information could indeed help a lot!
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I'd have to ask a lawyer 😁
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He'd have nailed a much better ending for GoT, too.
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This is exactly the kind of elegant, subtle, nuanced trolling that I come here for. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ Would RT again.
Quoting a tweet by @MelissaK_Moore ↗
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This would make a great t-shirt.
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What. Fuck. No. The last of the Brood X cicadas have barely finished decomposing.
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It would be interesting to find out if there's a section 5 deceptive practices angle to this…
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Or just the cookie, if you weren't logged out.
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Reaching out to the handsomest men on Twitter is an interesting spam strategy.
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It's quite wonderful to get to 170; it's an interesting perspective to think about how to make sure that the next 170 years get to happen too, in more ways than one.
Quoting a tweet by @NYTArchives ↗
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This is a consistent feature of children. It's a little scary.
Merci :)
I'm not sure an RV is cheaper than a house, though!
Honestly, I haven't touched that in six years or some such, any bugs in there that are from my code are past the statute of limitation :)
It's good to see old friends! 🫂💝
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I was starting to think that it would never happen!
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I am — but I have also been in the market for an RV :)
Ooooooh, well done 😂🥰
No promises but I'll keep a note of it in case I feel polisson :)
The struggle... I can't...
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Seeing Like A State friends: I recall reading somewhere that those German forests nearly destroyed by scientific forestry and covered in SLAS have not recovered to this day, but I cannot seem to locate a reference for that latter part. Any thoughts? Thanks a lot!
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Does Germany have anything going on around October?
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Of the book, yes, but that's not where I saw that those forests still hadn't recovered over a century later.
Thank you 🤗
prefers to keep things quieter and to just work behind the curtains.
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Yes! So long as you don't receive an email back saying you are *actually* refused, this doesn't mean refused. It means they're processing the NIE. Normally, if the created and updated dates are the same, it just means it's in processing.
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TFW you want to avoid public accountability so hard that you'll sabotage accessibility features to get there.
Quoting a tweet by @JuliaAngwin ↗
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"It's okay because it's on-device" is one of the coming biggest issues in tech.
Sometimes it's true, often it's a lie. (Arguably unintentional, but that hardly matters.) A few quick thoughts: 🧵
Quoting a tweet by @RolfeWinkler ↗
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Who does your device/OS/browser work for?
That device might feel more trustworthy because you bought and therefore own it, but without fiduciary obligations there is no guarantee that it will put your interest before its maker's. This needs rules.
papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cf…
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It doesn't magic privacy issues away.
Take the classic case of Target sending a young woman pregnancy-based ads before she was ready to share with family. Is the same violation computed on-device with on-device ads in any way different?
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More generally, is carrying out inappropriate processing on the device better than off device? Is using one's control of the device or agent to monetise another business's work no longer theft if it happens on device?
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Questions of whether the user retains agency, of the application of persuasive tech, of control over parameters, of the uniformisation of collective cognition and the organisation of information all persist — often in exactly the same shape.
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The gain from moving processing on-device is largely from a security perspective. Definitely a plus, but hardly the primary threat model. And… that's about it?
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And as with all user-controlled systems, the defaults would have to be pretty damn good.
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It'd be fun to come up with the full typology. Facebook is Philip Morris, Google is DuPont, Amazon is Monsanto…
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Best of luck!
I think there's some Herbert Simon from the 60s expressing that regret :)
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The idea that tech should organise information for you instead of empowering you to organise your own information - as if a one-size-fits-all organisation were possible or desirable - is as pervasive in big tech as it is dumb, and eventually toxic.
Quoting a tweet by @BunchesOfBees ↗
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There's a word we use for organising information: it's called thinking.
Tech isn't supposed to do that for you, it's supposed to help you do it yourself better. But that requires a wholly different design than the systems we have today.
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At heart is the superstition that you can somehow optimise other people's thinking. You can't. That would only be possible if there were only one "rational" approach to the world, which is about as far from science as you can get.
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It's cute when it's undergrads who can't find where they saved a project. But we'd be extremely lucky if that were the only impact.
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Loving "on-device surveillance," it's a perfect summary.
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It could help with auditing, but for that to work it would have to be auditable and audited. I'm not sure that's a given 😁
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Absolutely! And having it land on centuries of wrong ideas about how progress happens is worse because people who mean to help first need to shed the wrong mental models.
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Well, you know, just because you, me, Calli, and a few friends of ours have noticed doesn't mean that this distraction won't work!
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She's right!
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GPC is cool and helps publishers, forcing notices when users hit DNS is dumb, maintaining logs for automated signals is impractical, DNS shouldn't be used as an excuse to exclude competitors, it's fine for browsers to match user expectations by having it on by default. That's it!
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I so miss real talks. I could do meetings virtually forever, but talks are meant to have an audience.
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File hierarchies scale! But then you've taught them to fish and what's the money in that?
Thank you! I've been struggling with this too, I feel the bend in the road coming where the problem isn't "privacy" anymore but things haven't changed. I don't think I've nailed it yet, still working on this.
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Awww thank you Ann, that's too kind!
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I think I'm the more pessimistic here. You think that this is bad people; that's relatively easy to fix. I think it's a pervasive mistaken ideology amongst very well-meaning people. That's fucking hard to revert!
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I know, I saw that! I've been wondering if something happened or if it's that someone in GAM somehow decided to do the right thing.
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You're reading this as "information should be disorganised" which would be a pretty dumb take.
The difference is in the "for you." It's the difference between a tool and a service, and between polycentric versus total organisation.
A simple example is a library. They'll have indexed the books. Maybe they use Dewey or maybe they have a DB that I can query to slice and dice my way — either way, I'm in charge. If their selection is bad, I have recourse and I have alternatives. It's not total.
With Search, it's making all the decisions for you. The librarian tells you which book you want to read. You don't know how, you don't know why, you have no agency: you just said cat and that's the book you'll read. You also have no recourse and they plan to run all libraries.
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Hahaha :)
I agree about focusing on outcomes (POSIWID), but effecting change requires understanding how we got here, and I don't think it's malice. I think it's because of people who watched Star Trek's portrayal of successful high modernism and thought that was a good idea :)
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I don't think it was a dumb question! I was just pointing out that it would be dumb, even for me, to say no one should ever organise things. It's a topic I've been working on for a while and I am still working on making it (a lot) clearer.
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J'aime bien faire des trucs comme ajouter "Shitty First Draft" au titre, ou commencer le premier paragraphe avec "It was a dark and stormy night…"
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Julien has a lot of smart things to say — go ask him some questions!
Quoting a tweet by @julien51 ↗
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I want... I want to use this. On the site.
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I realised the other day that I had had Word open and running for days, and it wasn't at all noticeable in terms of resources. What I don't get about Drive is how it's possible to be that much of a hog for essentially no features, and with bad UX at that?
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There's an all for that.
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*blush* awww
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
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Please write it.
C'est un problème de résilience des systèmes complexes (dont l'écosystème est un exemple). Ces systèmes sont très résistants aux perturbations — jusqu'à un point de rupture auquel ils s'effondrent.
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Si cet effondrement se produit, nous aurons affaire à un environment extrêmement simplifié, avec beaucoup moins d'espèces et d'interactions. Or, c'est cette diversité qui fonde à la fois la résistance et la productivité de l'environment.
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Sans résistance, des espaces entiers peuvent dépérir ou se voir désertifiés par une simple maladie ou un seul parasite. Sans productivité, l'écosystème dans son ensemble peut nourrir moins de vie.
On ne sait pas comment réparer sauf à laisser l'évolution rediversifier.
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Il y a un très bon exemple au début de Seeing Like A State où il parle de la gestion "scientifique" des forêts au XIXème qui a fonctionné en réduisant à un seul type d'arbre (le plus immédiatement productif), enlevant les sous-bois, etc.
La première génération a été ultra productive, du jamais vu. Et puis ça s'est effondré et ces forêts ont commencé à mourir très rapidement. Elles ont pu être partiellement sauvées, mais elles ne se sont pas remises complètement.
Bref: la réduction de la biodiversité risque de créer un effet d'entrainement qui rendra la Terre inhabitable pour beaucoup d'espèces, nous compris, pendant longtemps.
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J'espère que ce n'est pas trop faux; je resors ma digestion personnelle de trucs que j'ai lus ici et là :)
Le problème qui m'habite en ce moment, c'est d'éviter un pareil effondrement de la complexité de notre univers mental. (Je viens de songer au terme "noodiversité.") J'en cause dans berjon.com/stewardship/.
Ah oui, j'en ai entendu parler! C'est bien? Ils ont probablement tous les deux raison…
Très littéralement! Et je crois savoir que la productivité d'un food web (le graphe de circulation de la nourriture) a été reliée mathématiquement à la structure de ce réseau, de façon à ce qu'elle soit plus élevée au total pour certaines formes complexes.
Super, merci, je me le rajoute sur ma liste!
Hahahaha, j'adore!
Thank you 🤗
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Aram, it's not like Snow Crash is all that hard to get? If they didn't get that, I honestly don't think that any volume of education of any kind could achieve much.
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What's insane too is that the FTC accepted.
You can't announce this and not include a sign-up form already ;)
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Wait, you're getting wine? I'm not getting wine in mine. If Facebook is helping small wineries then all is forgiven.
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Fine size has to be measured against the size and revenue of the company. By that metric I'm not sure the fine makes it in the top ten. It's pretty paltry, and the market thought it would be much more serious.
Including the same from Google+ for which details mysteriously disappeared because who users' data was being shared with was not logged because of "privacy reasons." :)
I think the weakness of the FTC's hand has been exaggerated. You're not wrong about the EU though.
I mean Buzz was an astounding level of clusterfuck, no doubt! I'd still like to get the G+ leak investigated properly one day, but then again I also want a pony.
As per my previous email, go fuck yourself.
Best,
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Claiming that no one has read Snow Crash is... weird?
I'm pretty sure Sauron is a cool guy and Tolkien gave him a bad shake.
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But Star Trek.
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Even with that bias there is still a healthy 54% who think no one should be able to sell your data, ever.
They're right, too!
"Why are you not Gillian Anderson?"
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Same answer 😁
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No, that's, like, my job. 😁
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Indeed. We have a chance to reinvent how our digital works; that doesn't happen often. Once power is entrenched, the way out is hard.
This is really worth getting right, but that requires understanding governance beyond techbro clichés — and that's not a given.
Quoting a tweet by @buzz ↗
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It's quite clear from this just how much AMP was made to improve user experience versus allow Google to forcefully re-intermediate the web.
Quoting a tweet by @ChristianSelig ↗
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I'm suspicious of the "platform megacorp as country" metaphor, but I think we should be careful not to write off the emergence of a new form of government, with a genuine form of force, just because it's not the same kind of force as previously used.
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AMP is nothing short of a heist, the techbros who built it are today's corporate raiders. I don't think that anything has defunded journalism more since the heyday of finance.
It would be a thing of beauty if browsers stood for something and bypassed it. Better for all.
Quoting a tweet by @johnwilander ↗
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That's why I think that "country" is probably the wrong frame if there is something there. Countries have only existed in a meaningful way for a small handful of centuries. If a new form of power emerges, it's likely to be closer to something else!
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Funny that.
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The question I really need answered is: how did the koalas get rid of it? What arsenal are they hiding under that fluffy demeanour? 🐨
Quoting a tweet by @cnni ↗
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Or maybe the eagle only fed on dropbears. Then we know what happened. 🦅
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I can't know for sure, it doesn't look good but so long as you haven't received an email notification I think it's not final.
The product promotion just happens to be so good you can't refuse.
Quoting a tweet by @lewis_crofts ↗
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Whoa, this is amazing! Congratulations!
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It would be interesting if during #COP26 someone ran a report of which brands and agencies are actively defunding climate coverage. See @larakiara's coverage to understand the problem! businessinsider.com/publishers-adv…
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Well, the top search query on Google is "Facebook," so by that logic… (source: mondovo.com/keywords/ via @gchampeau)
Quoting a tweet by @ThomasClaburn ↗
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Right, but that's the same for Bing.
That's one way in which search could improve, another would be to put the parameters under user control (or user agent control). Mandatory interoperability for indices would be a huge plus for the Web.
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Yup, this would be a really neat action for them if they can!
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I reckon that's fine for some basic daily things (how do I get a tar stain out?), but most of the time that's not what I look for. And for any meaningful topic, the single answer format makes the gatekeeping even worse, and the loss of noodiversity more stringent.
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This is another aspect entirely, so one way to think about it is as another pressure point. Refusing to advertise next to climate content is a problem, it could drive some newsrooms (many of which are struggling financially) away from the topic.
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Thiiiiiiiiiiiiis.
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I don't do that much of the former, but at any rate I would certainly want that in a separate place from search. Trying to cram ever more things into search is a big part of why it sucks.
Love to see this: @Fastmail and @1Password have teamed up to offer masked emails to protect you from being recognised site to site. Conveniently, I already use both!
All that UID2 and friends seem likely to achieve is to destroy email as an identifier.
fastmail.com/1password/
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Also, lawns are evil.
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It's not just the equipment, there's plenty of other reasons to rip your lawn out gizmodo.com/lawns-are-an-e…
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Look at the terms they impose for minor accounts, too.
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And also DuckDuckGo.
Indeed — but some companies are trustworthy. Also, Fastmail already has all my email, 1Password all my credentials, etc. The difficulty I see is how people can tell the difference between those and eg. Google that exploits email content.
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NYT top company for women technologists for third year in a row. Plenty of cool jobs if you're looking: nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/NYT
Quoting a tweet by @NYTimesPR ↗
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Also, watch this space: I will soon be posting a position on my team, and it's one hell of a team.
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1Password doesn't get to own your identity. They integrate with Fastmail to set up the masked email and store it as your username as usual. It's two tools integrating, each doing what they do best, for better service. That alone is rare enough to be celebrated.
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That part is a problem, as it is with all the other relay offers. But I don't think that anyone has figured a way around that so long as emails are used. It's that or being tracked across sites (or running your own email).
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I would expect that it would be possible to keep the cheapest Fastmail running and just forward.
Ultimately, we need a more effective standard to destroy identity online. Until we get that, I'm afraid this is as good as it gets, though.
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Sorry but I don't get the issue you're trying to point to. Did you mean Fastmail instead of 1Password? Moving off 1Password is just like moving off any password manager, and this doesn't change that.
I mean, if you stop using a password manager, you are already committed to manually resetting your password on dozens or hundreds of sites. And remembering if it was your personal, work, previous work, college... email.
At the end of the day, within the constraints that are given, I can't think of any better design. Does it have problems? Sure. But all the alternatives that don't involve rebuilding how identity works on the web are worse.
Fastmail also has a list of known fake emails. And you'll almost certainly have emails from that service. So you'd have to lose all three and face an unhelpful customer service. It could happen; it hardly seems like the most likely issue?
Thanks Anil, good stuff. I think the one counterpoint to your argument is that you assume that data quality matters in surveillance advertising 😑 It's not obvious that they care. I can see those companies boasting about how many hashed emails they have in their ID graphs!
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I mean, "media company headquartered in Mountain View" was a bit on the nose to start with.
Solid thread with lots of good stuff — and this is a line worth highlighting.
Quoting a tweet by @doctorow ↗
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